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5 yards breaks a play?

By Lamba
4/30/2019 10:44 am
I'm running HB Flare both as short and medium pass.

The only difference is that WR1 runs 10 or 15 yards straight ahead.

Short pass is very succesful for me.
Medium pass is very not successful for me.

It's like those 5 yards mean that my players have no clue what's going on. When plays have that much similarity, it's this conversation in the huddle I imagine:

QB: "OK GUYS! WE'RE GOING FOR HB FLARE!"
WR1: "Which one?"
QB: "RED!"

Red meaning 10 or 15 yard route for him. That's all he needs to know. Everyone else does EXACTLY the same.

So how can those 5 yards break a play that much? :)

Ad: This is for my last game. Historically, I've mostly run the medium pass version and they're both at 4.3 average after 15 and 45 calls (short vs long). So overall, same thing happens, but they still don't really know how to run the medium version while the short version is 97% in the books.

Re: 5 yards breaks a play?

By raymattison21
4/30/2019 11:39 am
Lamba wrote:
I'm running HB Flare both as short and medium pass.

The only difference is that WR1 runs 10 or 15 yards straight ahead.

Short pass is very succesful for me.
Medium pass is very not successful for me.

It's like those 5 yards mean that my players have no clue what's going on. When plays have that much similarity, it's this conversation in the huddle I imagine:

QB: "OK GUYS! WE'RE GOING FOR HB FLARE!"
WR1: "Which one?"
QB: "RED!"

Red meaning 10 or 15 yard route for him. That's all he needs to know. Everyone else does EXACTLY the same.

So how can those 5 yards break a play that much? :)

Ad: This is for my last game. Historically, I've mostly run the medium pass version and they're both at 4.3 average after 15 and 45 calls (short vs long). So overall, same thing happens, but they still don't really know how to run the medium version while the short version is 97% in the books.



Not looking at the two plays side by side , but I would guess the qb is waiting longer to reach the dump-offs . Maybe the dbs or lbs have time to converge with the later throws?

The logic has them waiting for the primary target to finish his route before moving on to the others options. I think it depends alot on the defense called but the timing feels different on short, medium , and long passes despite similar design .

Re: 5 yards breaks a play?

By Phaldun
4/30/2019 4:21 pm
I like the idea of using logic here. Perhaps experiment by putting speedy receivers in those routes and see if there is a difference. I am thinking that the route running skill is vital with the high speed. Then there is the variables of the QB.

Just like Madden, this simulation does seem to have a few bread and butter plays, but all of the skills number crunching still plays a huge factor. The butter plays dont work as well even if your WR are fast as lightning, but their route running and agility are low
Last edited at 4/30/2019 4:22 pm

Re: 5 yards breaks a play?

By Lunkan
5/05/2019 6:40 am
>Lamba.
Looking in COMPUTER game point of view.

Are you players similar much USED to both these plays?
If not, I believe it can have to do with that.

Re: 5 yards breaks a play?

By Lamba
5/05/2019 8:15 am
I have used the medium version the most, yet my players hardly know the play. Avg yards per call was exactly the same when I posted.

Re: 5 yards breaks a play?

By raymattison21
5/05/2019 8:39 am
Phaldun wrote:
I like the idea of using logic here. Perhaps experiment by putting speedy receivers in those routes and see if there is a difference. I am thinking that the route running skill is vital with the high speed. Then there is the variables of the QB.

Just like Madden, this simulation does seem to have a few bread and butter plays, but all of the skills number crunching still plays a huge factor. The butter plays dont work as well even if your WR are fast as lightning, but their route running and agility are low



Jdb runs a test sim where he can put any set of ratings vs. Any set of ratings . As well data when plays are seen vs. Certain plays . He says the data has no real bread and butter plays or bad ones . Defaults 90s are slightly different than mine but I believe him. He can even use our gameplans , but we switch them per opponent , so.

That said I like certain plays but I most likely have a stlye . One that has over 80 speed for all players except qb, k,p, oline ,dlinemen . But most of my linemen are within the top 80% for speed .

4.5 has route/man being more valuable . But really a long with qb logic changes have made the 3rd options primary options for a lot of plays. There are just bread and Butter plays vs. Different defensive schemes at different times.


Like if you blitz the WR2 slant will beat you bad if you leave him on an island vs a lesser db. It's like running a draw play vs. That same defensive . ...probably -4 yard gain. Very sensitive and situational and variables like play abuse and experience /familiarity throw curveballs in.

For passing Bump is rolled first (if the defender is in press ), so that can throw off timing depending on who the primary option. On any pass play the primary is cited in the play description and design , but that is moderated by a RNG.

In the logic After bump it's speed/acceleration , and not till the reciever makes a cut is man rolled. Then speed/ acceleration is rolled again and so on till end route senerios where then the wr runs to random spots. So depending on the senerio any one of these things can be good or bad.

Hopefully QB has made multiple reads by then and this is where I think speed helps as route seems to draw targets but not necessarily quick targets. That's really dependent on whether it's a short, med or long pass. Or a hot read/RNG . Speed gets that last boost for separation to lower the effect of punish but winning those rolls for bump and route are so important now for the man to man senerios of the game. If your in these senerios alot an elite qb can do well with recievers with high punish or catching even if they are cover .

Zone is weaker or less developed than man is but I don't see why the right cover 2 should nt shut down most passes to the hook and flat zones. But right now I don't think it's there yet. So it truly a man to man thing I am talking about . As qbs will throw ints vs. Zone Defenses but you won't even get close to as many knockdowns vs. A heavy man scheme .

Having a wr with low bump/speed could muddled things up. I have 85+ speed wrs with 25 bump and sometimes they never reach the end route senerios ( their lucky to get five yards downfeild) before 3 seconds . In 4.5 qb don't buy any time so getting guys out in there route is so important . Just to open up spacing to create more one on ones for these poorly timed and possibly forced throws.

I think your on the right path to allow your qb to make the throws. As accuracy is moderated by arm strength and release. Who he targets is mostly dictated by FOV , intelligence, experience /familiarity , and RNG .