Like I mentioned directly in Whitey's thread, I troll the MFN-1 forums to check for updates and occasionally read the main forum. (And I'm really glad that I stepped away from playing the game because dealing with the frustrations you all have dealt with...)

Anyway, I wanted to take some time here to respond to Whitey's thread. Because even though I quit playing, I don't think the game is trash. That said, I think it has some clear logical problems that would need to be addressed for me to really want to play it again at anything more than a casual fan level. Keep in mind that these are just the things I've started to see as deal breakers. I see more problems with the game than this.

1) The game outsmarts itself. - This is a general complaint rather than a problem exactly. JDB has done a good job of trying to combine different player attributes to get a more dynamic game play. The problem is that the complexity makes the game unreliable and impossible to troubleshoot. I'll give some specific examples below.

2) Speed is tied to weight. - This is completely unrealistic, and it causes many of the problems in the game. For instance, a 100 SP RB at weight will always out run a 100 SP LB at weight if both have full fatigue ratings. That's before factoring whatever boost the RB is going to get from Ball Carrying.

The Ball Carry boost is one of those places where the game becomes unreliable. Don't you love watching your 50 SP, 100 Carry, 100 Break Tackle make a catch, break a tackle, and take it to the house with a wave of defenders in his wake? You know you do.

Others and my suggestion has been to remove this tie and make speed accurately measurable in terms of game physics. I understand why JDB tied speed to weight because you don't want players taking 90 SP, 240 pound LBs and making them DEs and...oh, wait, that didn't matter anyway. There are many ways to get around the speed problems. Like tie fatigue to physical weight (fatigue rates are pretty messed up on the game, which I didn't even mention below).

3) Speed is used in unrealistic calculations where Acceleration should be used instead. - The OL vs DL speed comparison is supposed to be gone, but I don't believe that it is. The fact that OL ever used Speed as a parameter in Pass Blocking is beyond me. Seriously, it's so illogical it makes my brain swimmy trying to make leap from blocking to speed.

Speed appears to be used in a lot of other places that it should not be used either. Fast QB still outperform slow QBs with better stats in v.0.4.1 even after the boosts to accuracy, arm, and intelligence.

4) Speed is too slow. - Ray has in the past, has continued, and will continue to point out how slow players are. And he should. There are huge discrepancies between a 100 SP player, a 90 SP player, an 80 SP player, and 70 SP player. I assume that's because SP is determined exponentially and not arithmetically. That's at least what I could see from comparing fast and slow players.

5) Passing Velocity is way off. (Thought this was Release but discussion below corrected it.) - Ray has also pointed out how slow the ball travels from the QBs hand to target in relation to the players on the field. And he's absolutely right. The calculations here are way, way off. Velocity should be calculated against game physics. For instance, a QB with 100 Arm Strength should throw the ball say 60mph. That's 105,600 yards per hour or 29.3 yards per second. Then subtract 250 yards in the calculation for each point under 100 for release. So a 99 Arm Strength QB throws 105,350 yards per hour. And a 0 release QB throws 45 miles per hour or 22.4 yards per second. This matters when a WR has a very small window to be open.

6) QBs take way too long to make decisions. - Everyone remember the days when the QB stared at one WR at a time? Anyone miss them? Didn't think so. The game engine in 0.4.1 improved this quite a bit, but it did not address the fact that QBs wait up to a full second before reacting their WR's route. I'm certain that the problem here is that QBs have to wait for the WR to reach the end of the route to make a decision to throw rather than anticipate the WR being open at the end of the route. This is also why those hook plays were so devastating pre-0.4.1. The WR would hit the end of his route and then start free running up the field and the QB would just casually throw him the ball like it was planned that way. (I'm almost certain that the defense ignores free running receivers until they have the ball, but it's a different problem that I never studied closely.)

7) QBs stay on their read when they should not. - If it's 1-10, and I call a long pass. I may be doing so to open up the underneath route. Why doesn't my QB take that open receiver?

8) QBs throw short when they should be going for a first down. - Here's the corrolary. QBs throw short a lot of the time when they need to throw to the first. I see more QBs drop the ball off on 3-Long than ever on 1-10. Why?

9) Tackling is not completely implemented. - The only way a player can currently tackle another player is to occupy the same space as the other player. That means things like reach tackles, arm tackles, and dive tackles will never happen on the game. This reason alone makes it really easy for RBs to turn the corner on LBs.

10) Strength is poorly implemented. - There are two times that I know that strength is used for sure: blocking and pushing the pile. That's it. In one of the rare times where the game does not outsmart itself, Strength is not used in tackling or breaking tackles. It also is not used in bumping the B&R or applying it. It also doesn't seem to be a factor in fatigue or injuries.

11) Physical weight is poorly implemented. - Remember all those underweight DEs playing against 300 pound OL. The reason that was successful until that glitch was patched was because those OL weren't just breaking the underweight players in half every down. If you lined up a 220 pound DE in real life, that player would be injured in less than a full game because of the impact the OL would have on the player's body. Similarly, you don't have to worry about playing RBs at WR to get their weight down. Even if they get trucked - they won't - by a LB, they'll bounce right back up.

12) Pass coverage is terrible or, more to the point, it's loose. - I never confirmed it, but I'm almost certain that the punish skill is only used when the defender is occupying the same space as the receiver. That means all those "catch overs" you see aren't really "catch overs." Those are times when the receiver actually has clear separation from the DB because they are not actually occupying the same space. Similarly, you're not going to see the Safety come up and lay out a WR across the middle for the same reason. Defenders cannot dive. They can only occupy space.

13) Zone coverage will never work the way the game is implemented. - Since defenders have to occupy the same space as the offensive player to tackle (and probably break up passes that they don't knock down in flight), zone will always fail. The reason that this is is because zone is based on playing the area and not the man. When the man comes in, you have to come up on the man and quickly. Since speed doesn't really work right, you can't rely on that, especially from your LBs. Since you can't dive tackle, you're screwed from the start. And since you can't lay someone out in pass coverage, your opponent will complete 70% or more on you.

Sheesh setherick. That's a lot of stuff to point out.

Personally I don't watch games often; I just check the stats and adjust depth chart/game plan/player weights accordingly and I've generally done fine with this approach.

I guess I'll have to stick with not watching games or else I'm going to be just as frustrated as you are.

I had about a month worth of personal notes from breaking down film that I hadn't compiled into any kind of meaningful format.

I thought pass release was supposed to be for how quickly the QB releases the ball when a receiver gets open and arm strength was for velocity... Thats how it is in reality anyways.

Arm strength in the game determines how far the ball can travel from the QB. It does things like allows the QB to prioritize longer receivers on long routes. (I think it caused a bug where weak armed QBs would just watch players run go routes with no intention on throwing the ball too, but that's another story.) I don't think it controls velocity. Regardless, ball in flight is slower than the players running.

Also, JDB hid the written commentary on all of the attributes, so I can't reference it anymore.

UPDATE: You were spot on about Passing Release: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/community/thread/1/2182?page=2#14682

UPDATE 2: Dug through 15 threads to find this, but yes, Arm Strength controls distance _and_ velocity: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/community/thread/1/1764?page=1 (Couldn't remember the velocity bit. So copy/paste Arm Strength for Passing Release (which should be velocity and not time to decision, which doesn't work anyway)).

If the ball moves too slow then the parameters for pass release would be off too. The clock is off also , but these are minimal. Still, a 100 in any capacity would " be better " in comparison to a " zero" when compared to time and space taken up based off our clock/ field dimensions. Speed / acceleration fall in to the same category , but arm strength would have the opposite effect as a weaker arm would "be better" than it should. This is why slow players stink, yet they can knock down a pass that should be 15 feet in the air. 100 punish is too effective .

Knock downs by defenders happen all the time but are never recorded. Just watch any game. One game there was like 22 incompletions and 18 knock downs. The game is very similar now but knockdowns numbers were just nerfed to get real numbers.

IMO. This same thing messes up fatigue and or any time related rating. I bet this is through reason broken tackles are all messed up too. Fast players beat the slow to the corner or just " cut it back" as the time it takes for a guy to cut back is linear to weight and this slowed clock. It's all how you want to veiw it.

When a guy like Barry sanders could change speed that fast but emit smith could not. There no difference here. Perhaps ball carry, but no good feed back on that one on how the change pursuit angles of defenders .

Still, this is an opinion formed under 4.0 because I got sick of believING technical skill players had a place here. These codes seem better, but I have not checked to see if there is any difference under 4.1and dont think i ever will.

There e was a ball carry effect that was switched just recently and I am very encouraged because this was a huge problem that could have help with this time / speed / fatigue discrepancy . Also, I love that MLBs are playing better I the run. They fell off in coverage numbers but are racking up number like theyou should.

Also this game is soooo great because you can watch the games only to dispute the validity of why they happen. Jdb is a genius in the way he made all the players, the field and ball all interacting individual entities . It's a gold mine if done right by keeping realistic parameters . Ones set by the game of footall. It is mostly physics-based kinesiology and human physiology working in a 3D space.

The worst experience formwith this game is the people who complain and the ones who cheat. Other then that I can live with qb play or blitzing or whatever the new problem is

We know....yawn city. Anything new to report ?

Mr. Pott, meet Mr. Kettle and Mr. Black

Can we not litter my well-worded complaint with another flame war? That's what the Game is Trash thread is for. ... Not that I mind. (Hits Unsubscribe button.)

And to be honest, it's not really a complaint as much as it was the notes I never passed along to JDB or at least in any kind of cogent, serious form. Heck, half of it is probably wrong like the knock down bit. But they are all observations about the game. And since I spent most of my time here trying to improve the game {even when I was complaining (especially when I was complaining [complaining is the only thing that makes better software])}, I'm going to take this last opportunity to complain, and share my notes, and hope that something positive comes out of it for all you that are dedicated enough to see the game through.